RIGHT TO MATERNAL/FETAL HEALTHCARE & EDUCATION to stabilize the abortion issue

I think we still would see that because it’s the only thing they have left to use.
They are trying it, but according to the polls, it doesn’t appear to be working.
By moving the Republican policies to the center, it enabled people who aren’t usually conservative party voters, many of them over this issue, to vote for Republican leadership.

Florida’s Amendment 4 ballot measure seems a serious item to watch on Nov 5.

Don’t chase him, just vote for his Presidency, you don’t have to like him or his policies, or go to his rallies, to see that his presidency is the better path for the country and your interests, even it’s not all your interests.

I imagine what we’re feeling is something similar to what an anti-slavery person might have felt in the 1820s. It would be over a generation (40 years) from that time before that practice was finally ended.

To answer your question though, you would vote for Trump because you are not an idealogue single issue voter and can accept practical realities of a situation when relied upon to do so. Trump and the “X-Men team” as we seem to be calling them now are good for the country. MAHA (Health), DOGE (Gov. Eff.), projection of Strength/Power to bring peace internationally, the list goes on.

I see holding a line that says the Dems can’t do anything on abortion while he is in office is better than a Harris victory. It puts the temper tantrum throwing sycophants with their ludicrous “no regulation whatsoever” demands in a “time out”. And that’s not nothing. To not vote Trump, and to not encourage others feeling like maybe sitting out, like you are, to vote likewise in this election, is to risk Kamala Harris winning the Presidency.

That’s not going to punish Trump, or the Republican party, for not being pro-Life enough. There are a lot of atrocities happening all over the world. Right now, draining the D.C. swamp creatures and disempowering the government and media gaslighting is our biggest issue. The pro-Life movement from everything I can see is getting stronger all the time. It’s just not this election.

If Woodstock was the beginning of the liberal march to power, they then had JFK in the 60s, an anti-establishment figure; and he was assassinated for it (sound familiar?). They gained momentum in the 70s and that cultural wave carried through to the first Obama term. The rise of social media was the conservative Woodstock, and the election of Trump in 2016 and now is our JFK. This is the beginning of a strong movement and the Dem leadership knows it. That’s why they are throwing everything they have into these last two elections but they’re running out of steam. Trump, and the MAGA movement generally, has only gotten stronger each election cycle. That’s the future.

In my reading of the tea leaves, the pro-Life stance eventually comes out on top on this one.

Roe v Wade needed to be repealed, not overturned. The Supreme Court of the United States, consisting of nine men, got it wrong in 1973; and in Dobb’s v Jackson Women’s Health Organization, in 2022, a SCOTUS made up of six men and three women got it wrong, again. Sending bad federal law back to the states to have them create more bad law, and then attempting to make federal exception carve-outs from that ‘more bad state law,’ such as is suggested here, is not a solution; it is a final recipe for disaster. This country cannot survive another half century of bad law falsely claiming to be about “medical care,” that is in reality an attempt—by females AND males—to impose draconian civil control over the fundamental essence of a free “life,” and what it is to be human.

This, the more than five decades of a second American Civil War (of blue against pink this time), and the attempted politico-medical coup by the current insurgent regime, MUST end.

The right to an abortion was, and is, bad law, just for starters, because the initial legal argument that there should be such a “right” was based on lies, and the decision was perpetuated as “law,” by way of lies:…lies about what the Constitution does and does not say (or imply); lies about “privacy,” sex, and sexuality; lies about women, and a supposed group-think declaring what “ALL” women “want”; lies about rape, and what does and does not constitute the act of rape; lies about babies not being human beings (and thus, “persons”) until some indeterminate time after their initial biological creation, to be decided and decreed by the completely non-scientific authority of the State, no less; lies about what a medical abortion is, and does, to both the child in the act, and to the mother, during, and long after the act, and that the procedures are “safe”—when one person is sure to die, and the other might also, or is very likely, at the least, to suffer severe and life-compromising injury (about which she is not properly warned); there have even been lies about the ridiculous concept that women, only, don’t lie, ever, about having sex…or being raped… But most importantly, this cataclysmically bad law has served up more than fifty years of lies about this thing, this word people toss around and use somewhat indiscriminately, at times, because we all should know something about it, but despite the commonness of the word, it seems like fewer and fewer people in this country have any legitimate understanding or concept of what it means…lies about the human ability to separate from the -LOVE- that is why we have survived as a species, and under which we were founded, as a nation.

In the case of Roe v Wade, there has been also, ample, clear, public evidence indicating the female attorneys who brought the suit (hiding their client’s name under the pseudonym ‘Jane Roe’) against Henry Wade, the male district attorney of Dallas County, Texas, had a hidden agenda of their own, i.e. a severe conflict of interest (so questionable legal ethics, effectively constituting yet another lie). Much of these lawyers’ side agenda was political. It was about their own aspirations to have power, and to be part of a “movement” to “empower women.” None of this had anything to do with their client’s complaint, which was, in practical reality, about a working woman not having access to competent medical care for herself and her children, born or unborn, as part of her and her child’s “right”…to “life” under the Constitution.

This case was never about “a woman’s control over her own body.” And it was never about “choice,” when the only option offered was the “right” of a woman to demand a doctor kill her unexpected or unplanned-for son or daughter before that baby had the opportunity to be born. It was about an overspent welfare system that did not want babies being born to women who did not have the financial means to take care of them and raise them, in a society that denied most women a livable wage, and offered medical care prejudicially to primarily men in higher paying jobs. At the same time, males, married or not, especially powerful and privileged ones, were being taught by this same culture (and legal system), that because of specific developments in medical care for women (that she may or may not have access to), a male now had an entitlement to have sex with no responsibility with any woman he “chose.”

Roe v. Wade was dreadful, bad law because “Jane Roe,” Norma McCorvey, a woman and a mother, was used by this country’s legal/political system for the system’s own purposes. She was not afforded protection under the law by virtue of the case as was her “right” as an American citizen; she was simply used. And given that Norma McCorvey, a living, breathing, able to bleed, human being who happened to be female was not compensated for said “use,” it is a credible argument that she, herself, instead of receiving protection under the law, was, in fact, violated under the law by the United States legal/political system as per the provisions for her rights as a free person under the 13th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

Completely omitted from the public narrative about this landmark (and, legitimately Earth-shattering) case, were the facts, Jane Roe, long before Roe v Wade, had never been afforded her “right” to protection under the law, repeatedly, in the face of abuses she’d suffered extending from her own birth, childhood, adolescence, and young adulthood, living as a female person in the peculiarity that is “modern” American poverty. And equally, the father of the child she sought to abort was not held to any accountability or responsibility toward Jane Roe or his kid. Nor was/were the father(s?) of her previous two children held accountable in like kind. By the time of Roe, Norma McCorvey had been compelled already to offer two babies from two previous pregnancies for adoption, due, undoubtedly, in no small part to her working poverty (as a waitress, which meant she had no healthcare for herself, much less her children, no daycare during their infancy and toddlerhood, and likely had insufficient means, on a waitress’s wages—with or without “tips”—to pay for rent and groceries for her children or herself, as well.) So, she was subject to the State’s and the capitalist American culture’s arrogant instant assessment (in the face of ever-attempting to pretend this country is not the world’s leading creator of, and accessory to the perpetuation of poverty so people can be “used” as “cheap labor”) giving up her babies for adoption was what Norma McCorvey should do…since she had no money and was living in a sick, financially, social system that offered her only one thing, an ongoing terrorism that said, no matter how hard or effectively she worked at the level assigned to her, she could not AFFORD to be alive, much less be responsible for the life of someone else.

How is it so many, especially other women, find it impossible to understand why this woman did not want to go through that again, the challenges that are any pregnancy, only to feel she had no other “choice” but to give away her newborn she carried to term and delivered, for the third time? How is it possible so many think the solution to her situation was to have the State compel her, with the phony coercion that it was “medical care” and her “choice,” to instead have a doctor end her third child’s life before he or she could be born. This country has the audacity to call THAT “medical care” for a woman carrying a healthy pregnancy—really? Really, United States of America, that’s the best you have to offer in the supposed “greatest country on earth”?

The decision rendered about the case, both times, reveals a cowardly attempt at a quick-fix solution to the Court’s discomfort with the complicated details of the should-be largely private topic(s) being pled. Roe, in the original decision, also appears to be an all-male Court’s dodge in attempting (incompetently, and arguably with depraved indifference and prejudicial malice in the form of age discrimination toward the unnamed, third-party person to the matter) to offer blanket, before-the-fact and before-any-charges (much less a verdict), automatic, civil redress for the victim of a specific criminal act, by way of placing a mandate on a medical system over which the Court had no authority, for the potential aftereffects of a criminal offense (the central lie of the case) that is committed primarily against women. The Court’s negligence and cowardice in this regard, instead further aided and abetted future prosecutorial neglect—most of it male, against the perpetrators, almost exclusively male, of the lied-about crime at the heart of the case, in a culture that was undergoing massive shifts in attitudes, ideas, and beliefs about sexuality in the face of never-before-available medical/scientific knowledge and treatment modalities able to interfere directly with human conception, but also able to intervene dramatically in a life-preserving way for the very young, along with everyone else.

The obvious failure of the Justices to look at the larger picture of what was being argued; to familiarize themselves with the relevant, medical/scientific knowledge (and in the case of the recent overturn, how that knowledge has changed dramatically since 1973, including its use in forensics, and the capacity to positively identify paternity, pre-partum); and to reach deep inside to find their own, personal “humanness,” both times, on the part of the Court reveals this entire, decades-long exercise in “bad law” to be nothing short of unconscionable.

And if all of the above were not bad enough, most critical, has been the high Court’s failure to discern (and discuss publicly) the case represents just the tip of an iceberg of underlying social fear due to the miscarriage of justice which derives from the abject failure and disgrace of the United States of America, among all modern wealthy nations, being a stand-alone of delinquency in the creation of a monetarily and otherwise equitably-accessible, nationalized system of competent and highly-skilled medical care which prioritizes individual patient needs, not purveyor and shareholder profits—much of the latter as a result of mass medical miseducation by the profiteers, especially through their mass marketing, and the teachings of their accomplices, the so-called elite institutions of higher learning offering PhD programs in medical science and medical schools for the training of practicing doctors.

The resultant anger and hate deriving from this much broader, unaddressed fear that was the true heart and significance of the case from the beginning, for most women, is arguably the nidus of our massive drug abuse problems, and more recent issues with a declining American life expectancy due to “deaths of despair,” including suicide.

The glaring leap coming out of the sexist logic, medical idiocy, disgrace, and affront to ALL American women and girls by the all-male original Court is revealed in their apparent assumption, reaching the level of no less than a belief, presumably, in the majority opinion members (because it was something at least seven of the nine wanted to hear), that the untruth (undoubtedly offered as “fact” by the politically-radicalized female attorneys pleading the original case), that women, in general, have exactly the same attitude toward, and priorities about, sexual activity as males do, is true, and other than a concern about the potential for becoming pregnant as a result, their belief included a conviction women desire to engage in sex with “equal” enthusiasm and vigor as the majority of males.

Thus, with abortion as a “right,” no pregnancy equals no foul. Case closed. Without there being evidence of concurrent physical harm, rape could no longer be …nor had to be… proven.

So, the bad law based on lies engendered a widespread false belief among the general public that by offering abortion as a “right,” the delusional—and one would hope extremely uncomfortable—high Court had the power, by way of waving its magic gavel, to make women, “equal” to men (never mind that there is no biologic definition of “equal” because it does not exist), so people could go about their modern lives, thanks to the American medical system, having as much sex as “everyone” wanted…right?

Excuse me??? We’ve suffered half a century of hell on Earth already in this country. Need I remind the high Court a majority opinion (of the Court or the general population) has no standing in matters of consensual sexual intercourse at the outset, ever, because it is about two, individual people only, always, period. And in the case of an unexpected pregnancy, the ONLY potential tie-breaker ‘vote’ on the appropriateness of an abortion, from the child involved, is, always has been, and always will be disenfranchised by way of he or she never having a voice in the matter, ever.

All of this has resulted in massive, deadly, destructive miseducation among the masses, and an insidious, uncompromising, and unending terrorism targeting specifically our children and any American woman, or man, entertaining thoughts of wanting to have, and Love, a child. We’ve become a State sponsor of terror against the essence of being human.

How, on Earth, could the United States of America have fallen to this?

This country needs, desperately, a complete re-vamping of its medical system, starting with how we pay for it, securely…and individually, from conception, to grave, for each person, no matter what happens along the way (please see Policies for the People People's Mandate Healthcare for All Americans https://www.facebook.com/100036084640155/ . And this medical system needs to be restored to being both humane and sane by way of the complete removal of ALL profiting, third-party interests who provide no hands-on, active with patients, medical “help” whatsoever from that system, starting with monetary interests called health insurance companies (offering an impossible concept that, in reality, does not exist), and extending to and through those influencing Congress, as well as medical education on all levels (including via mass media) and research. These currently improperly profiting entities, under the above proposal, are reduced to one role only, going forward, that being to PAY for the vastly improved and constantly getting better in service to humanity, system, in perpetuity. Otherwise, the power over what does and does not happen to one’s own body (a woman’s, or a man’s, or a child’s) is returned to the People, as the individual owners of just one body, each, that should never be controlled by the State without due process.

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Wow, I share and have expressed 99% of what you just said, Lise! I have been trying to shout those concepts from the rooftops. I would like to echo your comments by sharing three tweets in which I described those issues quite fiercely. The first tweet is my PINNED tweet, because it’s the first thing that I want everyone to know about abortion. What many people don’t know about my advocacy is, I’m not just fighting against elective abortion because it kills human beings; it’s a fight against the underlying anti-woman/anti-mother ideology infecting our society, and it’s a fight to push Democrats and our society to offer women something better.

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A few quick reminders about my proposal, in response to your post:

-My proposal is more of a right to very basic, and commonly supported, medical safeguards for pregnant women. Women already have access to free healthcare (Medi-caid) or regular insurance. We are no longer denied because of pre-existing conditions. There is always room for improvement for access to routine and preventative healthcare, however my proposal does not prevent other healthcare proposals from taking effect. It does supplement other healthcare proposals quite well.

-Secondly, the concepts taught in my proposed high school awareness class will tackle the culture issues and misinformation that you cited. I truly believe that if men learned about how horrible abortion really is, the harms of all forms of exploitation, coercion, abuse, COERCIVE CONTROL, toxic stress, player culture, absent parenthood, as well as basic parenting skills, etc. they would treat women better. They would understand that it’s not ok to exploit women’s bodies for sex. And young people overall would be less scared, and hateful, of babies. The following reply post has more details on this high school awareness idea: Teach Life Skills in Schools - #3 by AshleyLuna

-Democrats have successfully tricked the masses into thinking that elective abortion = healthcare. The many layers of this proposal package would thoroughly decouple that concept, showing people that we do not need to support elective-abortion-until-birth to support women’s healthcare.

-I do call for a well-defined definition for “rape” and specific, supportive documentation, to qualify for the exception. I’m well aware that some people abuse the definition of “rape” and the disservice that causes.

-Lastly, I have a separate proposal, designed to tackle some of the economic coercive control that pregnant women and mothers often face. While this other proposal is likely too liberal for the Trump administration, I am personally pushing it/throwing this out there because I truly believe in it. Federal Paid Maternal Leave, Unpaid Intermittent leave & College flexibility

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This is my response to Mike Fair’s post, that he has now deleted.

Actually, abortion coercion, by men against women, as well as the systemic/economic coercive control waged against mothers, are top drivers of elective abortion.

If we ended all forms of exploitation of women’s bodies, and abortion coercion, then the demand for elective abortion would nearly disappear.

I do agree that BOTH men & women should take more responsibility.

Like many women, my first pregnancy was a result of some form of coercion. I also refused to succumb to my husband’s subsequent demand to kill my child, a child that he decided to create. Unfortunately, many women lack the same strength and suffer the trauma of a coerced abortion.

I simply call on fathers, especially those who used some form of coercion to impregnate her in the first place, to acknowledge that they had a little bit of bigger hand in the creation of this child than they let on, and to be more aware of the deep harms caused by player culture.

Also, the majority of the pro-life leaders are women. I also found, then in internal policy discussion groups and spaces, the majority of people trying to shut down the debate about abortion issues, and decenter women’s voices in women’s issues, were men.

Yes, the majority of the leaders on both sides of this issue are women.
Women control this issue.

I think there are two phenomenon happening with this one.
A) Men are far more interested in the systems of politics, so will engage in policy conflict. I think you will find men are speaking against everything more frequently than women. I would be shocked if the majority of posts on this entire website on every topic isn’t heavily skewed towards men.

B) Men are vilified if they speak too purely as pro-life, and rewarded if they are pro-choice. To use your logic, men are reputationally pressured into supporting pro-choice views by the women in their lives. Perhaps we should teach women in high school to pressure men less.

And if we ended all meaningful disparities between people, there would be world peace.

No one is disagreeing with you on this.
The question is about what kind of legislation can we enact and actually enforce that doesn’t get exploited to turn the entire society into a tyrannical hellhole?

Think about what you just said for a moment, “ending all forms of exploitation”?
You think you can legislate that into existence and enforce it without destroying individual preferences and desires of a free people?

No. I’m just correcting you when you claim that only women are responsible for the advent of abortion and magically erase men from their contribution to the demand for it.

I have actually seen bro-choice men try to silence other men from speaking on this issue, in other policy discussion groups. On a repeated basis. I’m mainly referring to discussions within the Forward party though. I have even spoke out against this. This snippet shows the words I said to Andrew Yang about it: Snippet with Andrew Yang

In response to (A) no, women are plenty interested in engaging in political activism regarding women’s issues… have you not heard of feminism? I have noticed that the Forward Party & Libertarians is about 75% male, and it’s no mystery why, as the platform tends to ignore women’s issues. Wanna know what I notice about RFK supporters? PLENTY OF WOMEN HERE. RFK succeeded where Forward Party failed, appealing to women and gaining enough ballot signatures in all 50 states, in large part because unlike Forward, he has a real platform that doesn’t ignore women’s issues.

(B) The high school awareness class would effectuate that goal—because it teaches everyone the value of life for you. It gets the facts straight so that no one has to be alone in pointing those things out.

While I entirely disagree with your characterization that our society is participating in a “coercive economic control against mothers” I think this point is really getting at the heart of the whole debate. Women don’t have a natural right to become a mother any more than men have a right to become a father.

The undergirding point being made here is why I claim the abortion debate is most fundamentally an economy debate, not a women’s health debate nor even a human rights debate. Nobody is seriously debating that the unborn child is a human with a right to life.

The “It’s just a clump of cells like a parasite or tumor” or the “Viability outside the womb” or “Sentience” arguments are simply trying to dehumanize the unborn life to obscure their real agenda which is the economics and lifestyle protections.

It’s the exact same thing as when our country was debating slavery. The pro-slavery side was arguing economics and lifestyle while the anti-slavery side was arguing human rights (the obviousness that the slave was also a human being was clear). This debate isn’t new to our society, or to human history.

What the pro-abortion side is having a challenge with is the “duty” implications that follow from recognizing the unborn child as a human being. Our culture has moved towards seeing the concept of “duty” as a kind of “coercive enslavement” rather than maintaining a sense of duty as a cultural moral good.

However I would like to change the framing of the claim here.
The “motherhood penalty” is not actually the main issue because “supporting families and childhood development” goes a whole lot further than just alleviating the economic penalty of becoming a mother.

Unless you are going to claim that every woman has a natural right to become a mother and society must pay to support her and her children in her lifestyle choice, you can’t claim the “motherhood penalty” as a systemic coercion any more than you can claim my perceived “permanent Bahamas vacation penalty” is a systematic coercion against me being permanently on vacation in the Bahamas that society should support me in being.

Without addressing the even deeper underlying issue that “a free society should foster and encourage the systematic development of healthy, strong families” then unfettered abortion access for women is the right economic policy to pursue because someone, and so far we have declared this someone to be the child’s parents, has a duty/obligation to care for that child.


If we’re going to make enforceable laws, we have to ask the question “what interest does the state have in this debate anyway?”

There are two:

  1. The protection of the right to life of the unborn child
  2. The perpetuation of the society writ large

Generally speaking the United States prefers voluntary acceptance of a duty versus compulsory mandates.

In the abortion debate all of these principles are at odds. Depending on how you prioritize them, you get the various positions we see on the topic. This is what makes it such a complicated topic.

By protecting the right to life of the unborn child we compel two things, the mother participate in the pregnancy potentially unwillingly (it’s the better part of a year of her life), and the resulting child dependent (adding attentional and economic overhead, potentially unwillingly).


We had solved this before by making women economically tied to their family and spouses, being a mother/caregiver was essentially the entire reasoning behind it.

The system kind of sucked, and women decided their economic dependence on men was the entire reasoning for their woes, so women demanded economic independence, and it was given to them. They now had the equal privilege of being economically valued purely for their work product, just like men.

Now women are saying "Hey, wait a minute, but now society doesn’t see they have a moral obligation to take care of me if I want to be a mother. There’s a ‘motherhood penalty’. "

Some of the society is saying “That’s right, we’re giving you unfettered abortion access to remove the ‘motherhood penalty’ so you can participate equally in the economy.”

Others are saying “That’s right, keep your legs closed if you don’t want to pay it. Welcome to being treated equal to men.”

Others are saying “Mothers are heroes and the state should be stealing taxes from everyone else to ensure these women have free reign to be whatever kind of person they want to be. It’s horrible to place any kind of expectations on these women whatsoever. Free everything for them, they’re victims of patriarchy and male pressure after all.”

And still others are saying “As a society we have a significant interest in shaping a healthy future for our society and that places obligations and duties on how each of us behave today. We should organize our society to encourage, foster, and develop strong families. We should not expect women to compete equally in the workforce. Biologically, we aren’t set up this way, it’s less obvious as, but identical in results to, women competing against men in sports. There is nothing more important to us, as a state, than maintaining a strong investment in the health and education of our future generations if we are to last.”

I’m in this last camp.

I don’t have the exact prescriptions for what those new expected norms ought to be, but it does involve men generally being expected to protect and provide for a set of dependents and women generally expected to attend to the needs of those dependents. If that’s patriarchal and misogynistic, then fine I guess. I’m not the one trying to force reality to fit my worldview; I’m looking at how things actually are and advocating for aligning ourselves with those obvious natural inclinations.

Mike, nothing of what you just said addresses what I said. If you’re going to go off on a tangent, at least don’t argue with points that weren’t even made. I’m having trouble deciphering what you feel you arguing against when you say “women don’t have a right to be mothers.” (???) So I’m going to line up a few points that ur last post responded to; feel free to identify which ones you got a problem with.

You do not have a “right” to exploit women’s bodies. You do not have a “right” to access women’s bodies. You do not have a “right” to irresponsible sex.

Fathers do NOT have a right to tell the mother of their child, to kill their child. Just because a woman refuses to be coerced into violence doesn’t mean shes fighting for her “right” to be a mom. Shes just doing the job that the father elected her to do when he impregnated her: continue to protect their child that they BOTH created.

Any kind of coercion, threats, bullying or abuse against pregnant women, is also passive abuse against the child. The child feels the same things as she does, is affected by the same stress and fear. This can cause long term developmental harm to the unborn child. In fact, the child’s personality & relationship to his/her mom begins in the womb. Of course, the coercion could lead to a fatal conclusion: abortion.

This proposal does not include economic kickbacks for moms or children, so I won’t address your whining about the need for mothers & children to be supported.

You said, "Some of the society is saying ‘That’s right, we’re giving you unfettered abortion access to remove the ‘motherhood penalty’ so you can participate equally in the economy.’ Others are saying ‘That’s right, keep your legs closed if you don’t want to pay it. Welcome to being treated equal to men.’ "

I’m so glad you’re not saying that. Because abortion definitely did NOT make us “equal.” If our only means to economic security was a choice between killing our children, or living dependent on a potentially abusive man, we are neither equal or free. P.S. I don’t aim to be “equal.” Mostly, I just don’t want to die, but anyway…

You said:
“As a society we have a significant interest in shaping a healthy future for our society and that places obligations and duties on how each of us behave today. We should organize our society to encourage, foster, and develop strong families. We should not expect women to compete equally in the workforce. Biologically, we aren’t set up this way, it’s less obvious as, but identical in results to, women competing against men in sports. There is nothing more important to us, as a state, than maintaining a strong investment in the health and education of our future generations if we are to last.”

Yes I agree with that. And thats what my proposal aims to help accomplish.

Delete

I was responding to the point you made that I quoted at the top of the response.

Here is the point/claim you made that I was responding to:

This claim doesn’t work/isn’t true.
The whole characterization is just plain wrong.

Agreed.

However

I most certainly do have a right to this and so does everybody else.
It’s that whole “consenting adults” thing.
Something being a bad idea is entirely separate from “rights to do bad ideas”

They sure as hell do.
And she has the right to tell him to “F*** off” if he does.
He gets to advocate for his opinion just like she does, and her choice wins.

I was responding to the economic claims about “economic coercive control waged against mothers”, as I quoted at the top of the post.
Women don’t have a right to be mothers, so it doesn’t work to claim “economic coercive control waged against mothers” any more than I have a right to claim “economic coercive control waged against me being on permanent vacation in the Bahamas”.

Are you advocating for two counts of assault charges against pregnant women?

If you’re not thinking the economic/social practices in today’s workforce/economy that make it more difficult for many women to stably become mothers needs to be addressed, then I’m not sure why you’re adding it as one of the two primary drivers of abortion?

You claimed the “motherhood penalty” in your “economic coercive control waged against mothers” statement as a primary driver in abortion. How are you thinking that is going to be alleviated if not reshaping our economy to provide artificial advantages to mothers/families?

I never said it was in your proposal; I was responding to your framing that the current norms are tantamount to “economic coercive control waged against mothers” .

Good point on the endless political “spin.” Here’s what Ashley and I are proposing to do about that: People's Mandate Healthcare for All Americans https://www.facebook.com/100036084640155/ is working with this policy proposal to stop having ANY political/legislative body making predetermined decisions about emergency medical care (which is malpractice in about a dozen different directions–not that any of the thousands of lawyers involved have bothered to notice THAT!) because what We The People need, is, to get the political/legal system OUT of healthcare, period, out of our bodies (female AND male) once and for all. Other than a need for very restricted regulatory (not criminal) oversight for certain aspects of medical practice (to be devised by a carefully selected board of medical/legal/average working citizen “professionals” of BOTH genders (and as much other diversity as we can come up with–especially FINANCIAL diversity) who are constantly reviewed in their actions and recommendations, and who serve a paid equally, but limited term), we need to stop having judges and lawyers and egomaniac politicians teaching medical care (about which they know nothing, or they would be doctors instead) to the general population–especially to our kids–always, as you note, putting a “spin” on it that makes people—women—fear for their lives every moment they are pregnant, while our children are growing up trying to figure out why there are laws against killing someone else, unless that “someone” is a very young child–then it’s OK for “mom” to have a doctor kill him or her. This is nuts, and incredibly harmful to everyone’s emotional health, but the worst of the delusional politicians are patting themselves on the back for “saving lives!” with these pro-abortion laws—How about the 63million kids who have been slaughtered based on lies already? RIGHT TO MATERNAL/FETAL HEALTHCARE & EDUCATION to stabilize the abortion issue - #187 by PeoplesMandate ).

The abortion argument is about terrorism, not healthcare, terrorism…and money. Redirecting... .

Ashley and I are working on putting an end the abortion terrorism by discussing the truth, and we’re working on how to properly pay for all of our medical care (not just emergencies) for women, men, AND children, intelligently and securely, and NOT FROM TAXES, from conception to grave, permanently,—BECAUSE the People’s Mandate is completely non-partisan, so not subject to being changed every four to eight years, nor to “spin” of any kind. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHO GETS ELECTED ON NOVEMBER 5, 2024, the People’s Mandate is what needs to be codified into Law as an Amendment to the Constitution, not a “right” OR an outlaw, to abortion.

In response to Mike saying that people have a “right” to irresponsible sex, and fathers have a “right” to tell the mother to kill their unborn child…

Mike, you are confusing legality with rights. Just because something is technically legal, does not mean that it is a right. For example, even though elective abortion is legal, it does not make it a “right.”

Secondly, by asserting some non-existent right to impregnate women irresponsibly, and subsequently try to coerce her into abortion, you have revealed your true intentions behind your furor over my proposal, the same agenda that I have noticed from a subset of other Libertarian-minded males and Mens-Rights activists. You’re lashing out against this proposal, not because you care about how these issues affect women or children, because you’re making it all about you, what you want as a man; awareness about the harms of exploiting women’s bodies and abortion coercion threatens your non-existent, desired right/excuse to be able to use women for irresponsible sex and be able to coerce her into aborting your child. Many similarly minded men have conjured up this so-called right so that they can whine about child support.

You falsely said that I cited the “motherhood penalty” in my “economic coercive control waged against mothers” statement.

I did NOT mention the “motherhood penalty” at all as part of “economic coercive control waged against mothers.” Motherhood penalty tends to refer to lesser wages and lesser promotional opportunities (which is NOT what I’m complaining out). You seem to be making presumptions about what I mean by “economic coercive control.”

That could very well be.

Please clarify/explain what you mean by economic coercive control.

If it’s not the difficulty for mothers, especially younger women, to earn a living wage while also taking care of children and having a vision of their lives that they are looking forward to which isn’t akin to “economic slavery”, then what is it?

Seems like we have another misunderstanding of terms/phrases here.

I don’t have, nor do I want, some weird right to go to some lady mill and impregnate women, that’s simply gross.

I have the right to consensually engage with women who also consent in doing stupid things like irresponsible sex.
Which is why I referenced “consenting adults” have the right to engage in sexual activity, be it responsible or irresponsible.

From the data I have, irresponsible sex results in unwanted pregnancies far more frequently than rape, or whatever concept some small fraction of men you’re describing have about women being some … what would you call it … breeder program? … for them… that’s just disgusting to even think about.
Are you thinking I’m some dude thinking “Yeah that ‘Prima Nocta’ thing was pretty fucking awesome, we should do that again!”? I understand people can misunderstand each other on these kinds of discussion, but that’s pretty … what word should I use here … uncharitable? … of you that you’d be thinking that.

If you’re referring to “sex trafficking” and “prostitution” and such, of course men don’t have a right to do that either, it’s already illegal, and quite disgusting.

Please explain to me the difference, for you, in “my right to engage consensually in activities like irresponsible sex” as separate from my “right to have irresponsible sex” or my “right to use my speech to communicate my opinion on what I believe people ought to do with their lives and their bodies” (my right to speak/tell has nothing to do with the authority/power to make them do it) as separate from my “right to tell people to get an abortion”?

Mike, your posts continue to be off-topic and irrelevant, with respect to my original post/policy here. You continue your thread, only in response to my previous off-hand comment to another commenter’s post, (in which I referenced my separate policy related to economic support/flexibility for working parents and students).

This isn’t Twitter. I know how much you MRA’s get triggered when your ideology fails with pro-life mothers like me. However, if you cannot base on your posts on constructive criticism on my stated policy, then please stop flooding the policy response section with your off-topic MRA nonsense.

Again, constitutionally protected, and legal speech, does not equal a “right” to intentionally cause any kind of harm to other people, especially harm to those that you are personally responsible for as a father. Roe v. Wade did not even confer a “right” to abortion for women; it protected a doctor’s right to perform one. Legal abortion access does not equal a “right.”

You have lost all credibility with me due to your persistent MRA bias, repeated presumptions, insistence on skewing definitions of words and overall whining.

We are largely on the same page, albeit coming at most of the issues from a VERY different perspective and life experience (I lost the ability to have children at the age of 36,-children who I very much wanted, and for years hoped to find the right situation, including with the right man, to have, --lost to the cruelty and miseducation that is much of our medical and economic system at this point in this country’s history).

You and I being in agreement here and now, for the most part, though, is not just good, but “great,” insofar as the two of us, together, having quite a bit more than just 1+1 to offer this central government…and everyone else…as to where U.S. policy needs to go to get back to being about the “right” to “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” (can you hear it?–those millions of thoughts and quiet voices agreeing with every powerful point you or I make about what has gone terribly wrong in this country, and why, because of a “wealth-ist” political system that has absconded with the money that should be paying the actual providers of hands-on medical care and early human life “support,” as well as the real researchers and scientists who provide new modalities and clarity on what can be done, and also what should Not be done in matters of health, we are instead on the brink of all-out civil war. And though it’s almost never acknowledged, that politico-economic system has been doing all this evil while, at the same time, attempting to crush the love that is the underpinning of any healthy society…and that political system’s worst enemy at this point in U.S. history…)

I needed to go there first, my friend, because I am compelled to be the bearer of bad tidings in having to make the very strong point, your reply brings up another HUGE lie that’s been being fed to the American public–ALL of US,-including you–that happens to be at the heart of my advocacy (your X posts are powerful, hope to have some focused exchanges with you on those, at some point).

You state, “Women already have access to free healthcare (Medi-caid) or regular insurance. We are no longer denied because of pre-existing conditions.” This, my friend, is categorically untrue. My “pre-existing” condition was an economic one (ACA doesn’t cover those, nor any other legislation, because this government does not admit this is happening all the time, including to people who have “insurance”). I know about this untruth, because I should be the painful (as in years of ‘to the point of considering suicide’ painful) poster child for this ugly, American untruth. The much invoked “safety net” which Medicaid and now the Affordable Care Act supposedly “handled” is just yet another POLITICAL lie trying to cover the fact this central government has failed to provide equitable acce$$ to high quality healthcare services (including meds) to ALL Americans, unlike what every other modern, wealthy (not in constant political civil war) nation does for their people.

The short version, in my case, was that because I had been managing desperately to keep on WORKING (on legs that doctors would later wonder how I could walk on at all), in my medical professional job that required quite a bit of movement, agility, and strength to do, I did not qualify for Medicaid (under my state’s system–another problematic area–federal program and money but states make the specific rules–should sound familiar b/c of what they’re trying to do with abortion, now. I may have qualified in CA–why you don’t know as much as you are led to believe you do about healthcare services offered to less-wealthy, including working, people, all over the country.). And, because of felony theft and fraud crimes committed against me by Capital One and Bank of America (the kind of felony theft crime that happens every three seconds every day, all year, year after year in the USA while federal law enforcement does absolutely nothing about it), in conspiracy with the Small Business Administration of the U.S. federal government (and their accomplices, the other “bailed-out” federal loan shark banks, and the should-be-illegal, so-called credit reporting bureaus), along with the lazy, delinquent, and “wealth-ist” U.S. tax code,-because of all these things and their financial rape of me, in part BECAUSE I am a woman,–one who was running her own small business (there are many definitions of rape) I DID NOT QUALIFY for reduced rate health insurance under the ACA because my income was too LOW ( I have shown a LOSS in excess of over $100,000 on my US individual tax return every year since 2010–completely legal, prepared by a CPA, and completely nuts-, and am likely to do so for the rest of my life–something called a “carry-over loss” designed to allow wealthy people such as Donald Trump, or Kamala Harris, or Joe Biden, or way too many members of Congress OR all of their BIG donors to buy failed and bankrupt smaller businesses (or houses in foreclosure due to bad, Big bank loans, e.g. sub-prime mortgages, etc.) on the government’s, i.e. the other taxpayers’ dime, by taking the loss off the wealthy person’s tax returns, so they can then turn a profit in future years by “restructuring” what is left of the destroyed business (or turn the private home into a rental unit–that the foreclosed-on previous owner could never afford-- to pay the already-wealthy new owner on into the future).

Anyhow, I went on working as a licensed medical doctor (of a different kind), in agony, for almost a decade before, close to death, I was declared permanently disabled, and because of my age (60), was put on Medicare a little early. It was as I sat on a bed, non-weight-bearing on my left leg, recovering from a complete foot and ankle reconstruction (11 procedures through nine incisions during 5 hours in the OR–the first of five major orthopedic procedures and four joint replacements), that I started to study this country’s overall healthcare system in greater depth than just my own extensive, and questionable experience, e.g. sick with chronic respiratory disease, asthma, allergies and complications throughout my childhood; twice now-most recently in 2014–having declined medical treatment for suspected cancer my own education and background told me I likely did not have. My studying inevitably brought me to the abortion issue as you well know would happen to anyone who undertook such a search.

I’d certainly done my own million miles of thought on abortion already (as you have seen, above)–I was 15 years old in the year Roe was handed down–but with the advent of the internet and social media (FB being the only one where I’ve felt compelled to make the effort to become somewhat proficient), and able to do nothing but rest and heal, I was appalled, frankly, to discover how much misinformation and vitriol was out there, especially among younger, child-bearing age women, but in reality among everyone, period, because, if you look at it long enough, it inevitably tracks back to money and American wealth-ism’s misuse of it to ALWAYS insure the wealthiest (a handful of people) keep getting richer at the expense of everyone else’s life Redirecting.... …especially now, the lives of more than 60,000,000-sixty million never allowed to be born, children…many of them conceived, not because of love, but because of money, and the expectation by this society that women should be offering sex to men to have access to enough money to live a modest modern American life, because we sure aren’t going to pay women, or these days anyone, male or female, in much of the middle class and downward, enough to live independently.

So, it was as I sat there in 2019, having been denied ever having my own children, and also denied, by a criminal federal money system, ever being able to adopt a child (I’ve fantasized about being able to take in, perhaps, sibling teenagers stuck in foster care who need and want a permanent home) that I started to ask myself, OK, how can we do this as a country? How should we be paying for medical care as we’re slaughtering thousands upon thousands of healthy, very young children every year, in secret, with seeming indifference, and to be forgotten (though not really, or ever, in each individual case) because, one way or another, her or his mother/parents feel like they cannot AFFORD to let them live, and we are an incomprehensible $35,000,000,000,000+ -35 trillion- dollars in debt, more than $100,000 for every man woman and child, as a country.

Of course the ever-increasing 2020 political rhetoric was on my television constantly, as it ALWAYS is in America. And that’s when I said, “that’s how.” Let the people who have created this abomination of hate, pain, death, and disaster, PAY for not only fixing what can be fixed, but for making and keeping it better, always, ever after. And I wrote the People’s Mandate People's Mandate Healthcare for All Americans https://www.facebook.com/100036084640155/

-Yes, this country has become [more] anti-women (anti women being whole adult female human beings who think, and work, and feel, and have ideas and goals, not just Hollywood, porn’s, and “fashion”'s, bo-toxed, carved up, pumped full, plasticized caricatures of a supposed fantasy common to ALL men (but not really–though any man denying it will pay dearly, one way or another, sooner or later). But I ask you to recognize this is a wealth-ist position that encompasses both parties.

-we need a LOT more things fixed in our profit-driven (<<that being No.1) medical system than just the deplorable way we treat working women who become mothers, though I fully endorse the thought and sentiment behind your advocacy, I take issue with the idea we can just provide social services Congress decides to offer without being financially responsible, for all 35 trillion and more reasons as I note above, in how we do it. To not do so, is to sentence those children who are allowed to survive, to working in debt slavery for the rest of their lives.

-Education. Applause to all of your thoughts, but as you may imagine, I have dozens of concerns I would like to add-in and have addressed along with yours (that go all the way through to graduate school–hope you’re up for more posts!). For purposes here, I believe the People’s Mandate, when enacted, should be taught about in schools beginning in kindergarten, to have children appreciate the importance of providing for medical/child care when needed, as a society, so we never get back to where we are now, again. *Under the PMHfAA those five-year-olds will have their own Health Savings Accounts (managed somewhat by their parents at that age) which was provided to them by a deposit made into it every year since they were born by our political system and the excess profits of our most successful businesses (which are even more successful because they are no longer charged with buying health insurance for their employees) The kinderkid’s HSA, every one of them having the same amount of money being put into it, every year, the day before Thanksgiving, can be the main talking point to these lessons which are then expanded to explain the responsibility that goes along with being given this money to help protect their health as the kids move on through school.

-And lastly, it does not matter who wins this election, or any election. What you and I are talking about needs to be enacted now, with or without White House support. RFK, Jr., in my opinion, is the right man, perhaps the only man in this current generation, who can spearhead seeing it gets done.

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I acknowledged that we probably interpreted the same sentence differently, I clarified what I read and meant by what I said, and requested you clarify what you meant if I misunderstood it.

Rights to something in the political context are generally understood to limit the government’s ability to regulate… Areas the government is generally prevented from engaging in. A “right to healthcare” or “right to abortion” is not that government or society should provide you those things, it’s that government can’t materially regulate your participation in those things.

So when you say “right to irresponsible sex”, I read “the freedom to consensually engage in irresponsible sex which government is precluded from interfering with”; or “right to tell the mother of their child to get an abortion”, I read “the freedom to speak to someone their personal belief about them getting an abortion” which I believe would be the normal interpretation of both those phrases in the political context.

As far as I’m aware, I did not make any “MRA talking point” claims, you merely misconstrued what I said as those and despite my clarifications are continuing to smear me as whatever demon you’ve decided I am. You have neither accepted my clarifications nor chosen to explain your own terms despite my request you do so if I’ve misunderstood you.

As for pinning down the meanings of words we’re using and clarifying the characterizations of situations, then it seems I’m guilty as charged.

I do believe word choice matters “Tell someone to get an abortion” does not mean the same thing as “Forcibly make someone get an abortion”. I do not see the fact that “women who choose to be mothers are at an economic disadvantage in a free market labor economy” is the same thing at all as “mothers are the victims of an ‘economic coercive control waged against mothers’”. Again I explained what I meant, and asked you to clarify what you meant if I misunderstood your meaning.

Lastly, for not being able to stay on topic, that’s exactly why I deleted my original response. You then decided you needed to post a response to something that had already been erased from the discussion, which you even knew at the time you responded, had already been erased from the discussion, but felt you needed to post an already deleted off-topic response anyway.

Since that time I have been responding to your response to my deleted post.

To this post of yours:

You had no off-hand comments or references to some other policy in that post.
That is the post where I have asked you to clarify what the term “economic coercive control waged against mothers” means if I misunderstood it. I have already explained why I believe it is a mischaracterization of the facts based on what I believe it to mean, and again, I requested you to please explain what you meant if my understanding was wrong.

Essentially, you got triggered because I said the words “economic coercive control against women”, in an off-hand manner, in reference to a completely SEPARATE policy from this one. This is not the right space for you to air out your triggered thoughts, if you are not being constructive about the substance of the policy at hand.

If your take away from this discussion thread is that you should be able to use language that blithely and off-handedly categorizes the male half of society who don’t even get to make the actual final decision about an abortion are abortion’s primary drivers, as if that’s so plainly obvious a statement it deserves no scrutiny, and not expect folks to notice your off-handed disparaging remarks against half of society and go “hey wait a minute, that’s definitely not an accurate/constructive comment unless you can clarify or back up those characterizations with some hard facts because there are a whole host of things we can point to that are bigger drivers than those two” then okay, fair enough.

Yes, I found you off-handedly placing the primary blame for the over half a million abortions in society at the feet of men “triggering”. I guess what I find even more shocking is that you don’t.

Let your blaming of all society’s ills surrounding abortion primarily on men go on.