Get rid of daylight savings time (DST)

As I am not a “morning person” I respectfully disagree. I live in southern California…

I’m not a morning person either, and that’s part of why I advocate for permanent Standard Time. Please see again the maps of sunrise times in my original post above, or consider this below comparison of morning photos from SoCal.

Most Americans wake by alarm for school or work. Most must present themselves at 8am or earlier. DST’s forward turned clock is a trick to make us start an hour early every day. And if made permanent DST would force most of us to school or work in the dark half the year.

The earliest sunrise…

Most humans naturally sleep past sunrise. Those with difficulty doing so can use sleep masks or blackout curtains. But permanent DST would force millions to wake hours before sunrise half the year, against our bodily rhythms.

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Yes. Let’s also go back to the lunar calendar :calendar:

Most clocks update automatically. We could change it from a hard hour change over one night to 1 minute a day for 60 days, and almost nobody would notice. Or two half hour changes over the weekend.

There are lot more possibilities too, like reverting back to solar time, or setting our clocks to a 7 am sunrise year-round.

But what I can’t tolerate is a bunch of whiners angry about something they can but don’t understand. Thanks for trying to bring the light to others.

This is my soapbox sermon every year when DST starts! It definitely needs to be done away with. Thank you for presenting this policy in such a concise, well-informed manner!

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I agree with this! No need to keep it and it’s terrible for littles to need to adjust to all the time.

Thank you! We’re not farmers with lanterns anymore. We have iPhones and electricity. We can handle living life for a couple hours a day without the sun. We’re also a more international society and several countries don’t use DLST which unnecessarily complicates calculating meetings around time zones twice per year.

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Please vote in favor of this same proposal that has more votes, thank you!

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Please also vote in support of this same proposal that has more votes, thank you!

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Completely agree. Standard time is the most logical way to get rid of changing the clocks each year. It is true and balanced time. DitchDST

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It honestly doesn’t matter all that much to me whether we stick with Daylight or not, just ditch the switching. Culture will evolve to a preferred start time/dinner time/etc. There’s no need to ask babies and toddlers to show up at daycare an hour earlier/later than they’re used to. Adults can change their dinnertime preference more easily.

Culture will evolve to a preferred start time/dinner time/etc.

History shows this takes decades to begin to happen, and it never fully happens. Meanwhile health suffers and lives are lost.

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I entirely disagree with the following conclusions about the effects of a Standard/Daylight time be it a permanent or semi-annual change version.

These conclusions all assume we the people are incapable of moving the time schedule at which we do a thing and must keep our time schedules fixed over the course of a year.

Sunrise/Sunset happen at a different time every day. They move by a matter of hours over the course of a year. Just because we have a Dolly Parton song that says we work from “9 to 5” doesn’t mean we couldn’t change our behavior to say we work “9 to 5” for some parts of the year and “10 to 6” during other parts of the year. We could even change our schedules up seasonally or quarterly to better track the earth’s daylight availability. We can adjust our schedules quarterly/seasonally just as easily as we can adjust our clocks.

Advocating for companies and farmers to alter our lifestyle management to normalize multiple schedules over the course of the year is a better approach imho than trying to find the one fixed schedule that works throughout the year. And that can be done entirely independently of what any particular locale has decided to do with their clocks…

The answer to every single one of the above is:
“why does it force this? Have the involved parties change the time at which they do those things. Why are you forcing people to fix the time at which those things to happen?”

You even tacitly understand this idea because you advocate for it, just in the opposite direction:

This shoe works on both feet…
I believe we would all be much better off spending our energy to normalize the practice of seasonal, or at least quarterly schedule adjustments, to align our laboring hours to post-sunrise and pre-sunset than we are tinkering around with what people are doing with their clocks. Normalize the concept of adjusting schedules and the whole daylight time versus standard time debate becomes essentially irrelevant.

I blame Dolly Parton :stuck_out_tongue:

“why does it force this? Have the involved parties change the time at which they do those things. Why are you forcing people to fix the time at which those things to happen?”

DST’s very design is to force the population to start work or school an hour earlier than Standard Time.

This shoe works on both feet…

If most people ask their employers if they could start work an hour later, the answer is likely “no”. If instead they ask to start an hour earlier, the answer is more likely “yes”. The “shoe” does not fit both feet.

The best solution to this problem is to set clocks as close to solar time as is practical (that is, to abolish DST and restore permanent Standard Time), and then to let companies and individuals set their own schedules as much as is possible.

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Except for the part where the hour early person asks to leave an hour early…
Or the hour later person says I’ll stay an hour later…

I completely agree with you that the intent of DST was done with the intent to use the country’s basically “fixed schedule” attitude to shift when things happen.

I also agree the shifting of the clocks really messes with everyone.

I even agree that getting America to accept “we should change our schedule over the year” would take creating a movement, which is much harder than passing a law to quit futzing with our clocks.

And we can even “do both”.

To truly get the benefits you’re advocating for we would get rid of using alarm clocks and use the sun as our clock. That is the actual misalignment we are suffering the effects of. I see that misalignment as being largely independent of the use of Standard versus Daylight time…

What’s the real issue to be addressed here?
If we’re going to advocate for our health, let’s not half-ass it. Yes?

Daytime can be 4-8, 6-6, 7-5 or 5-9, 7-7, 8-6

Personally sunrise at 4am and sunset at 5pm feels weirder to me than 5am/6pm respectively. Even though what we call 12pm is no longer the midday zenith.
There are problems no matter which way you go.
And I think the energy consumption impacts are relevant to discuss; which was the whole reason for shifting the clocks (so we didn’t need to burn as much external fuel) in the first place.

Will you be satisfied that your health agenda for America regarding our working hours will be complete if the only thing we did was return to Standard time year round?

Except for the part where the hour early person asks to leave an hour early…
Or the hour later person says I’ll stay an hour later…

No, those are included.

And we can even “do both”.

Only permanent Standard Time can do both. Permanent DST works against healthy schedules by requiring earlier start times, it is counterproductive.

To truly get the benefits you’re advocating for we would get rid of using alarm clocks and use the sun as our clock.

I support this too!

If we’re going to advocate for our health, let’s not half-ass it. Yes?

I’m unsure what’s meant by this, but I would prefer we not converse profanely, thank you.

Personally sunrise at 4am and sunset at 5pm feels weirder to me…

Please share where that would happen.

And I think the energy consumption impacts are relevant to discuss; which was the whole reason for shifting the clocks (so we didn’t need to burn as much external fuel) in the first place.

DST does not save energy, and it probably never did. That hypothesis/myth was among those invented by the department store lobby in 1917 to sell DST to lawmakers.

Will you be satisfied that your health agenda for America regarding our working hours will be complete if the only thing we did was return to Standard time year round?

I am unsure exactly what is being asked here.

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You asserted that employers would say “yes, you can start an hour earlier” but “no, to start an hour later” which assumes the employer would also say “yes, you can also leave an hour earlier”, or the respective “no, you may not stay an hour later”.

The same logic used to favor starting an hour earlier, disfavors leaving an hour earlier; and favors staying an hour while disfavoring starting an hour later. Who knows what the management security implications are for locking/unlocking the facilities involved, OSHA requirements, manager hours, etc.

I simply disagree you can predict an employer’s likely behavior with any probability confidence on this.

It’s a “both foot” shoe because it’s a zero sum condition.

During Summer on Standard Time Sunrise happens at approximately 4am (sunset at 8pm). By shifting our clocks forward an hour that becomes 5am sunrise instead. So without daylight time, sunrise happens at 4am. It even shows that on the image of the sun position and clock times you’ve posted.

And I misspoke on the sunset thing, I should have said “'sunset at 6pm feels better” as 5pm sunsets are what we have now have during standard time in Winter. Permanent daylight time, moving the clock forward an hour would make that sunset happen at 6pm

The more hours people spend without the sun, the more energy we consume.

This effect is greater in the evening time at sunset over the morning time as most of society wakes up after sunrise (and therefore aren’t consuming excess energy while they are asleep) and they are usually awake past sundown (and the earlier sundown happens, the sooner they start consuming electricity).

Standard Time makes sunset happen earlier on the clock, therefore putting more awake people in the dark for more hours.

I also want to look at how that study was calculated, because it doesn’t say what those percentage increases are in comparison to; the implication is over “standard time”, and the changes are most dramatic at the edges of the calendar period where you would expect it because the clocks are more misaligned during those periods than in summer. What the paragraph is silent about is how much more energy would be consumed in the summer where the daylight clock time to people awake clock time is most mismatched (because sunrise happens at 4am and sunset at 8pm).

Again, as you suggested, we can use whatever clock time we want and alter our schedules to match the clock times appropriate for our situation. We could end timezones entirely and use UTC across the US or even the world and it that doesn’t force anyone to do anything. It’s annoying, but it’s not forcing anyone to do anything.

The actual health problem needing to be addressed is aligning our lifestyles to the sun’s rhythms regardless of what our clocks say far more than trying to figure out the right clock time for sunrise and sunset to happen.

Say we succeeded at abolishing DST and went ST year round, we’d still be left with the same problem that we aren’t aligning our activity schedules with the longer and shorter days (because sunrise would now be happening at 4am during the summer).

You asserted that employers would say “yes, you can start an hour earlier” but “no, to start an hour later” which assumes the employer would also say “yes, you can also leave an hour earlier”, or the respective “no, you may not stay an hour later”.

Nearly every job I’ve had, my employer let us come early and leave early if we wanted, but never has an employer let me come late. I think this is common sense.

Permanent daylight time, moving the clock forward an hour would make that sunset happen at 6pm

Here is an online chart to help:

The more hours people spend without the sun, the more energy we consume.

Not necessarily. Rather, the more hours people spend awake, the more energy we consume. And DST deprives sleep every day we observe.

Also, DST does force early waking in darkness, which increases demand for morning heat. Heat is a large draw on energy consumption. Please read more about energy here:

Again, as you suggested, we can use whatever clock time we want and alter our schedules to match the clock times appropriate for our situation.

No, I said it easier for most individuals to start their own days earlier. Historically permanent DST does not change schedules across society. If it did, that would cancel the illusion of added evening daylight. Instead, DST forces us to wake early every day, which leads to chronic sleep loss.

Here is another source for more reading:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0748730419854197

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You’re suggesting that people living in areas of the world that stay on ST year round get more sleep on average than areas that don’t.

Seeing this was probably a testable theory, I did some Googling and couldn’t find any evidence to support this. What evidence I could find says Arizona and Hawaii are both more sleep deprived than the average of the country.

It seems to me that what the evidence shows is people use relatively fixed scheduled clock times to operate on and the sun’s position is largely irrelevant to people’s behavior. The nation’s lack of good sleep is not because of DST, it’s a minor contributor at best relative to the other drivers.

Again I found no evidence to support the claim that if the sun went down an hour earlier, people would sleep an hour more. All I could find were people claiming that might happen, but no research in the areas of interest (ST year round adherence) that I could find ever showed that’s what people actually do.

Show me something that demonstrates residents of Hawaii and Arizona are healthier, have meaningfully better sleep (excluding the problems that come from adjusting to the change), and have more or the same economic productivity levels over the rest of the country during DST and you’ll likely convince me. I’ve just never seen anything that shows anything like that.

Also, I figured something out on the energy consumption front. You’re right that DST doesn’t “save” on absolute energy expended in total, it is more efficient at economic output/energy consumed. It does end up resulting in more total energy used because we are using commercial energy for longer; and commercial consumption dwarfs residential consumption by a landslide.

DST improves GDP/kWh, it does not reduce total kWh.

So while it’s technically correct that DST increases total energy consumed, that doesn’t paint an accurate picture because it’s portraying that the same amount of productivity is happening under both DST and ST regimes, and that’s not true.

As an extreme example, cutting electricity to all power saws and forcing everyone to saw boards by hand, will consume less total electrical power, but also cut fewer boards using more caloric effort. With power saws, we consume a lot more electricity and cut a whole lot more boards for less effort. Obviously the productivity efficiency levels between these two aren’t even close. If we compared these two regimes on a power consumption basis I can say “power saws don’t save energy, look at these power consumption charts” and while technically correct, it paints a skewed picture of what’s actually happening on the power efficiency front.

Autumn “makes the day short”

DST is an artificial, man-made adjustment to earth’s natural clock. It impacts our physical and mental health in negative ways. Besides, you will still get more daylight in the spring and summer even without DST.

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