lol the Finnish people themselves said that nothing positive happened at their experiment
You would get much better economic results by repealing the 16th amendment. Remove Income Tax and the redistribution of income stops; gives everyone an instant raise equal to their tax bracket; increases the incentive to become more productive; stops wasteful government spending; and much more. UBI is a means for more government abuse controlling who gets the resources and who doesnāt. In other words - communism.
Like anything large-scale, this can be implemented badly or perfectly.
It would need to be low enough that someone cannot just make a decent life for themselves, while also helping with the problems that come from this form of brutal apathetic trickle-down capitalism that causes millions to destitution and poverty., and rewards cheating, lying, and exploitation.
The minimum wage and the wage gap are disgusting. In many places the āAmerican Dreamā doesnāt exist and hasnāt existed in my adult lifetime.
Bad capitalism causes the popularity of utopian socialism, which is then taken over by bad socialism (communism).
Itās not right what this country does to people at the bottom or near the bottom. We actually have plenty of money, but itās for war and the 1%.
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Did you read the link you sent?
The most interesting parts:
The second year, the basic income group worked six days more, but the difference cannot be attributed to basic income alone. A new sanction regime (activation model) was implemented in 2019, which invalidated the research setting.
So effectively the research setting was invalidated is the reason the pilot was cancelled
Also of note:
The centre-right government implemented the experiment to see if improving financial incentives would lead to increased employment. The aim was not to study non-conditional cash transfer
In other words, did it reduce homelessness? Who knows, because that wasnāt the aim of their study
Agreed 100%
Execution is more important than the idea
I think that the entire system would need to have on-going metrics to make sure it is working as intended
Iām fairly certain this has already been tried in certain locations and has been proven to be a failure as policy idea.
Thatās referenced in the posts above (see, for example, the Denver study & Finland study)
It has in fact been proven to be a highly-successful policy idea, in terms of decreasing homelessness, etc. (but itās important that it replace existing welfare programs)
It absolutely is! And the administration would be
a nightmare, just as it currently is. Youād need to factor in unemployment benefits, disability benefits, food stamps, free medical care, free internet, earned income credits, charity from other sources, child care credits, which thanks to the current administration are now being given to non-working people so they can āget a breakā from children just to name a few.
Do young people who still live at home with mommy and daddy paying the bills still get this because they havenāt yet landed their dream job, or may only work part time, resulting in a low income?
Your idea negates low income earners from paying any taxes and receiving more tax dollars, doubling the damage. The receiver has no āskin in the gameā so to speak. And you assume most will want to get out and work instead of coast. I donāt want to pay for any coasters!
And Iām not understanding your idea of equity in marginalized communities. Are you proposing a different metric for them to qualify for this benefit?
The idea of forcing people to earn what they need and want is far more appealing and makes people more responsible and independent. The idea of āequityā tries to have everyone end up in the same place, so you take from one to give to the other so they come out even! Thatās not going to happen. Thatās called communism! Someone who works all their life should not be subsidizing those who chose not to, otherwise we will all chose not to work, live with less, and collapse this communist tax and spend system. There would no tax base.
This guaranteed basic income has already been tried in some cities and failed in every one.
Fostering work ethic begins in the home, church and schools, and in the pride and culture of a country. America is the envy of the world due to the hard work and ingenuity of itās people. Itās why we can eventually buy homes instead of living in tiny apartments like they do in Europe, own cars instead of public transportation, have healthcare superior to any other country.
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Equity: Iām with you on that one, itās bogus - UBI in no way brings equity, rather true equality - it raises everyone up.
You still wonāt end up in the same place, and thatās the point - but at least you start closer to the same place (which I think we all can agree is a worthwhile goal)
Again remember that welfare programs exist today & they probably do more harm than good - UBI would replace those existing welfare programs, thatās the compromise
Many on the left of course want both UBI & welfare programs - but thatās not a compromise
As for our healthcare systemā¦
This is a very Backwards way of seeing it, and is totally true and yet totally falseā¦
It does create True Equality, that much is observable, but the āāEqualityāā it brings is in no way to bring people UP in any way, as in Fact, it brings Everyone Down into an Equal Mess of Misery, and Despair, as we are beginning to see in Americaā¦
It makes us all Equally Enslaved, but the Writers of the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments would Love to have had you as their Propagandistā¦
If weāre beginning to see it in America, which has no UBIā¦ then clearly UBI canāt be the cause?
And wouldnāt it be worthwhile to test if itās the fix?
As a software engineer, I would get UBI - of course Iād pay more taxes, so at the end of the day Iād be paying into it more than Iād be getting out of it
But Iād continue to be able to live my life as I do today, not ādown into an equal mess of miseryā - Iād be making more than someone who has UBI
I appreciate your generally kind goals that you are putting forth here and you obviously are seeking the best thing for people, but I think this concept is a horrible mistake for these reasonsā¦
Once you install a system of universal basic income paid by the government, you must place several building blocks in place.
First you must create a digital ID that is connected to the payment.
That payment process allows the government to have direct control over the money. They can easily regulate how much you get, and what you do with it.
If you behave in any way that is contrary to State policy, your money disappears.
A letter will arrive at your door stating something like,
- Our records show that you have ____ registered firearms. If you donāt deliver them to the nearest police station within 48 hours your income payments will cease until you comply.
- We see that you posted an anti vaxx comment on your social media page. According to our misinformation prevention law weāve deducted $5000 from your bank account and raised your Income Tax to 38% of your annual income.
This policy feeds directly into the hands of the Globalists that seek to create a Totalitarian One World Government that controls every aspect of the people.
NO THANK YOU!
This story seems particularly pertinent to this issue: https://www.zerohedge.com/political/largest-study-ever-ubi-was-just-conducted-and
Short version:
So what did people do with the extra time they got from working less?
In short, the answer is, they relaxed.
ā¦
In concluding the results of the paper, the authors say, ā[P]articipants in our study reduced their labor supply because they placed a high value, at the margin, on additional leisure.ā
ā¦
On the flip side, people spent less time working, sleeping, caring for children, generating income, and engaging with their communities. Furthermore, less time was spent on self-improvement, searching for jobs, and exercise.
The numbers here may seem small, but if you apply this to millions of people daily, it becomes very weighty.
Not all of the results were statistically significant, but the major point is, overall, people used the time they gained from working less to engage in leisure, and there is no evidence of an increased use of time in other categories UBI proponents purport to care about, such as creative output, entrepreneurship, community engagement, self-improvement, or even spending time with children.
Where does this leave UBI advocates? Well, at best the evidence shows a UBI would cause people to work less and relax more. Insofar as the case for UBI is built on unleashing the stifled engine of human creativity, it seems like UBI isnāt up for the job.
Is this a lifelong proposal?
Does this mean that if someone stays unemployed they always receive benefits?
Does the proposed funding adjust based on someoneās activities (a student in college would see a 70% subsidy rate)?
Have you seen any projections for the total cost of this program if implemented as youāve stated?
Is there a particular revenue stream (aside from reallocating other entitlements and dealing with Fraud, Waste, and Abuse) you envision this coming from?
- HFT tax
- Increased Cap Gains tax
- Tariffs
- Corporate Tax
My biggest concern is our nature. The covid stimulus money was quickly pumped into 0DTE options contracts, sports betting, drugs, and luxury spending.
I also worry about the furthering of the welfare state.
We probably will, however, have to do something as we march towards an autonomous world.
Right, as a Software Engineer you might actually have a Job that you enjoy and WANT to doā¦
I once worked the Oil Fields, not because I enjoy throwing around heavy Metal Pipes and Rods and Standing on the derrick platform in the middle of Winter or summer, but because it paid better than staying at home without a Jobā¦
But give me UBI, and Iāll happily stay my ass home, drink lots of Beer, and never go looking for more Moneyā¦
The effect will be a very happy drunk me, with You and many others paying Taxes so I can live a Comfortable Lifeā¦
Thank You for Your Support of MY BAD HABITSā¦
I do love writing software - sadly, most of my job is not doing that, but dealing with incompetent leadership, which is not my favorite thing 
But I do get what youāre saying
If having a place to live & having food & a beer is enough for you, and you donāt care to have a smart phone or internet or a TV - then more power to you!
But if you do care about those things, then UBI is not going to be enough to get them - so you will have to do something
Now certainly the people paying for labor in the oil fields are going to have a harder time finding workers - theyāll have to raise their wages - is that not the root of capitalism?
If their wage gets competitive enough, some people will definitely say āthatās a lot of money, Iāll do itā
Elimination of IRS / Reduction in Taxation Proposals a summarization of What most Citizens donāt know!
This is a partial list of Policies listed under Economy:
āAbolish the IRS, Simplify The Tax Code, end Self Employment Tax, Flat Sales Tax, End Property Taxes, Veterans Should Be Tax Exempt, IRS Dismantling, End Federal Income Tax in Favor of National Sales Tax, No Tax on Homes or Land After Payoff, No Taxes for Seniors, Rev. Al Sharpton should be paying taxes, Eliminate Capital Gains Tax on Housing, No Capital Gains Tax, One Time Roth Conversion Plan, Estate Tax, Taxes Paid to the State not Federal Government, .1 Cent Tax on Stock Market Transactions, Stay at Home Mom Income, Property Owners Taxation, No Property Tax on Primary Home, Implement a National Consumption Tax Effectively Eliminating IRS and Federal Income Tax, Less Government Intervention Eliminate Taxes for Small Business, Student Loan Payments are Tax Creditable, End the IRS by Implementing a Flat Sales Tax, Abolishing of Property Taxes, No Federal Tax On, Tax Elimination Strategy, Tax Remittances, Simplify the Tax Code Eliminate the IRS, Raise IRS Reporting Limits on Casino Winnings, Raise Casino Jackpot Amount W2/ Taxes, Replace Income Tax With a National Sales Tax on Online Sales, End All Inventory Tax, Pre Tax Student Loan Repayment, Flat Tax, Simplify Tax Policy, End All Income Tax, ā
Each of these Proposals fail to attack the Root Cause of ALL Our Taxation Policies. 1913 Amendment 16 was passed and gave the government UNLIMITED Taxing authority.
Sixteenth Amendment
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.
Under Amendment 16 the government can establish a UNLIMITED, UNEQUAL Tax on anything government defines as income!
Please understand the above listed Tax Policy Changes will not work. They are ALL dependent on a current Administrations ideologies and ability to change them where Taxation is concerned. A new Administration could come in and change or dispose of each listed Policy.
Please consider this proposal to amend the United States Constitution Amendment 16:
This proposed amendment would eliminate direct taxation and restore the Founders concept of indirect taxation in the United States. Some examples, Indirect Taxation equals NO Income Tax, Property Tax or anything other than equal Sales or Stamp Taxes.
This would restore the original sprit and Protections of Our Constitution Reestablishing Citizen control over taxation. Before Amendment 16 in 1913 government could not apply direct taxes on the Citizenry. Therefore Amendment 16 is the root cause of Our taxation problems. Repeal is mandatory and would solve 95+% of the suggestions listed above and on this sight.
Repealing Amendment 16 will end the tyranny of taxation as it pertains to Property Ownership. Currently you effectively do not own Property. If this was not the case you would not fear loosing your Property when you are unable to make Property Tax payments due to sickness or other unexpected expenses. Family farms would no longer be in jeopardy because of Property Taxes. These changes would apply to all Personal Property. There would be no unequal Income tax or other employment related taxation or taxation on savings & retirement.
In short, Repealing Amendment 16 will end the punishment for working, owning and saving. Citizens would again be allowed to say NO to taxation they feel is excessive or unjust. An example would be planing a vacation. You could choose between a location that has a State / County $20.00 per night Occupancy Tax versus a location that had a State / County $2.00 per night Occupancy Tax. The control is in the choice. Locations with extraordinarily high taxation would see receipts fall and go to locations with lower tax rates. The key is in providing the Citizens with choice and equality again. You may not like the tax but at least you know the person standing in line in front of you has paid the same tax you paid no more and no less. Choice and equality in taxation are what I believe the majority of Citizens are looking for.
Feel free to share this information and link.
Thank you for Your consideration, Fred Walker
Harts / likes are great but votes count. Please click the link (light blue) and vote for:
Oil Field pay normally begins at something like $25 + per hour, for Worms, lowest rung donāt know shit from shine-olaā¦
And No thatās Not what Capitalism is, you have that part wrong, thatās just Competition in the Workplaceā¦
But how about we reduce the Pay of Coders to something more competitive, like Minimum Wage, so that everyone gets paid the exact same, regardless of experience, after all, thatās True Equity, right???
Or better yet, how about we match your Bank account to mine, and then you get forced to give me 1/2 of the Difference, that way, I have a Guaranteed Basic Income that I can depend onā¦
Or should I just live on what I have earned, and maybe if I WANT STUFF, I learn how to BUDGET AND SAVE so that I can buy what I wantā¦
Welfare, is the only thing you keep proposing, and frankly, thatās hat we already Researched, and found out was the Direct basis of the Destruction of the Black Family, we know it and can prove itā¦
But whatās weird is that you are proposing the replacement of One form of Welfare, with the Same Exact Form of Welfare, just Expanded to Everyoneā¦
Your proposal isnāt anything more than āāExpand Welfare to Everyone, instead of Limit it to the Targeted Classāāā¦
So, I will retort with, lets remove Welfare for Everyone that ISNāT Jewish, and restrict it to ONLY the Jewish, but with the Exact same Rules as were Originally put in place, and to also include any changes between then and nowā¦
No enumerated constitutional provision for special or social welfare exists. Any ābenefitā which requires qualification is not general welfare, but special welfare. Special or Social Welfare is a type of government support for the citizens of society. This violates the constitution and discourages Americans from working!